Walk into a bar. The bartender asks, "What can I get you?" The rabbi replies, "Something kosher that wasn’t blessed by either of them!" All jokes aside, this episode discusses various instances where kashrus intersects with potential Avodah Zarah issues. Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Director of Kashrus for the Chicago Rabbinical Council, and the Executive Director of AKO discusses some fascinating examples in todays episode.
Rabbi Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with Torah Anytime. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Sholem Fishbane, Executive Director of AKO and the Kashrus Administrator of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. Thank you Rabbi Fishbane for joining us once again.
Rabbi Fishbane: Thank you for having me.
Rabbi Hisiger: So you know we talk about Kashrus on this program and we talk about ingredients, we talk about supervision, we talk about systems, but there's one component of Kashrus that is very often overlooked and it's a unique concern and maybe even surprising to people because it's not in the, what we would call the traditional part of Yoreh De'ah that people study and learn when they're learning the halachos of Kashrus. And I'm referring to Avodah Zarah. You know it was brought to our attention that there are actually concerns of Avodah Zarah when it comes to certifying kosher food. You're very well aware of this. Give us somewhat of a summary of what the concern is, how people can be cognizant of it, and what they could do you know once they learn about the facts.
Rabbi Fishbane: Great point. That is very, very true. And what most consumers don't understand behind the scenes, our bais din sometimes are dealing with, Avodah Zarah she'eilos, which I would say a lot of people that learn Kashrus skip right over that, like how could that be nogei'a? I'll give you one recent example that came to our attention. We certify a company that was making eye drops. Eye drops. Now we used to ask companies, why would you want a hechsher on something that seemingly doesn't want a hechsher? But we stopped asking. You know why? Because primarily they understand that kosher is very good for marketing. It gives people an assurance. And you know it's, well I just, we want it anyway. We said okay, if you want it then there's no Kashrus concerns. We're okay with that.
So we were giving, we granted a hechsher to this company that was making eye drops. And it came to my attention once I saw the actual box, there was all sorts of references to Yoshka and all sorts of things that, oh my gosh, what's going on over here? So I asked him to come into our office and we had a meeting. And I have to tell you something, in all my years of training this really took my breath away. It turns out that not only is he an eye doctor, but he's also a priest.
And he has a deep feeling that the reason why the world is in a sorry state that it is, he goes back to the beginning of Bereishis, Genesis, where Adam Harishon ran away from Hashem and the way you have to come back is through seeing, and get this, the way we're going to come back, he knows, is by Bayis Shlishi. Bayis Shlishi. And he knows that when the Jews build Bayis Shlishi, the concept of Parah Adumah, this is again, this goy is telling this to me. Parah Adumah, you're all going to be purified, but when you go into the mikveh, you close your eyes.
And your whole body won't be pure because your eyes won't get the mikveh water. And how is the Beis HaMikdash going to be pure? You hear what's going on? So he created this eyewash that is going to be purified through holiness and the entire purpose is for when the Klal Yisrael builds the Bayit Shlishi, we're going to use it. And therefore he needs a hechsher because it has to be kosher in order to be.
Rabbi Hisiger: You couldn’t have made this up.
Rabbi Fishbane: You couldn’t have made this up. So I said to him, how do you make it holy besides for the fact that we’re giving a hechsher? He says he takes certain waters from Ethiopia that the king dipped in and then he pours it in and then he says a three-page prayer. I said what type of water? That wasn't the she'eilah of Avodah Zarah. I said let me see the prayer.
I looked at the prayer. Oh gosh. So I gave it over to our beis din and our beis din looked at it, studied it, had several meetings with him. And the bottom line is they told me, it was as if he took out chelek gimmel of yoreh deah, hilchos avodah zarah, and found every chumra to make sure this is Avodah Zarah and he wrote it into his prayer.
It was like there's no she'eilah, this is mamesh Avodah Zarah. So we had to tell him that not only can it not be certified but thankfully nothing had hit the market yet. All the products had to be taken off our hechsher. That's one example that didn't even hit the market.
Rabbi Hisiger: A wild example.
Rabbi Fishbane: But there are many, many others. You know, I go to, we travel a lot so we have factories in India. So in India, if you know that the cows are sacred there, okay? What I mean by sacred is like if there's a cow crossing the street, everything stops.
That's why traffic in India is horrendous because they don't shecht or kill the cows and the cows are sacred so there's cows all over and there's traffic jams galore. Yet, it's okay according to their culture or religion to take milk from the cow. And there are some hechsherim that actually certify products with milk from India. So I ask you, what do you think? If it's holy, if it's Avodah Zarah, what would be the heter to give such a, now the CRC, we do not do that because we rely on, you know, Chalav Yisrael, lefi Rav Moshe, and because there are many behemos teme'os that are being milked, then we wouldn't give a hechsher.
But there are some hechsherim that rely on the Pri Chadash, which is not like Rav Moshe but it's more if the behemos teme'os milk is more expensive. So they do rely. So what would be the heter for such a thing? So where do you go for such, right? Where do you go? So that's where the rabbanim that live in these countries become very valuable. And we spent some time talking to them and understanding, basically the way it works is that the cows themselves are not Avodah Zarah where you bow to the cow.
Rather they're sacred so that they carry, you know, neshamos, whatever they believe on. I'm not, I'm not bekant in their exact religion. But the point is, is that it didn't make it Takroves Avodah Zarah to the point where the milk goes out. So that's another example.
I have to tell you a story, not related to Kashrus but it's just a great story. Remember the tumult with the sheitels many, many years ago? They were bringing it to the Indians and they were bringing it to Avodah Zarah. So I was one time in a Dunkin' Donuts, certified kosher Dunkin' Donuts and I was waiting to talk to the owner. The owner actually was from Indian descent and he was with his family and they're talking amongst themselves and I'm standing outside and I overhear the conversation.
I listen to, you know, we have Yiddish tumults, you know, coffee room tumults. So they have coffee room tumults. Maybe, I don't know what they drink. Okay.
And their tumult at the time was, you hear what's going on? In the temples that we thought our daughters are going to give the hair to the temple in India, they're not even making it into the temple. As soon as it's cut, it's taken off to the side to be sold to the wig industry. Ah Chutzpah, what's going on? I was like, this is the greatest news ever. So, you know, that's just a great little story.
But there are many, many other things that come up, certainly with drinks. I know Rabbi Niehaus spoke on this great program you have. He talked about sake, which is rice wine from Japan. I've been in Japan and I remember I was in the factory.
I couldn't find a room to daven mincha. Every room had a getchke. Okay. You know, that's what they do.
Before the production of the day, they bring over and they say something to the getchke. At the end of the day, the same thing. So that's the shaila. I mean, if you go through the sugyos of Avodah Zara, it seems to be not a problem because they're not actually taking the sake in front and then using that sake to be served.
There's various halachos. Another is trappist beer, which I believe Rabbi Niehaus mentioned. That's very interesting because that's being made on the, it's called the abbey. It's by the monasteries.
It has to be made for the monasteries. And there's three laws to be called trappist beer. One is that all products have to be made immediately in the surrounding of the abbey, which is chatzer in halacha. The production must be carried under the supervision of the monks or nuns.
And finally, the profits are intended for the needs of the monastery, which again, if you learn in Gemara Avodah Zara, it goes through various things. So if you go through, there's something called betoiva, which the Mechaber and the Rema talk about. Is this called betoiva? Because you are, you are supporting the monastery, which is pretty much betoiva. There's takroves.
Is it takroves? lechoira not. The location, we couldn't get into the abbeys, but that's what Google maps are for. We were able to look over, find out exactly where they're making the trappist beer, how close they are. And it's pretty much a chatzer. It's, it's a problem.
Is it called mehana? Because it's, you know, giving, and of course the overall shaila of Christianity today is shituf or not. We follow the Noda B'Yehuda that it is. So, you know, if you go through the list and I'm obviously not going to go through all Hilchos Avodah Zara at the moment, but if you go to the list, it doesn't look good. But I must tell you that the last prat seems to be the saving grace to buy trappist beer, and that is retail stores.
And Rema talks about that if it goes through a third party, it's talking about malchus, the government. If it goes through a third party, you're not directly giving it to the monks or for the monastery. That seems to be a heter. That's okay.
So if you would go into a regular liquor store and you would buy the trappist beer, and there's a certain logo that it's officially trappist. That seems to be okay because it's not going directly. But if you're traveling, most of them are in Belgium. If you're traveling and you want to buy one directly from, not so pashut, not so pashut.
And I must tell you, I found out recently, believe it or not, here in America, there's a huge industry of honey being made by abbeys and monasteries, and that helps support them. And to be honest, we're researching this now. Does that hit the market? if you're buying it, and it's in a lot of America, it's a pretty big market. And I was talking to someone, he says, I was talking about the trappist beer.
He says, you know, I'm a big honey farm guy. Did you know that they do a lot of business? Oh my gosh, just the last few days, we've been researching. So it's a big deal.
Rabbi Hisiger: The trappist beer, what makes it different than traditional beer? That people go, you know, especially these connoisseurs of beer, like it.
Rabbi Fishbane: We got to find a connoisseur. You know, beer to me, I'm still like, you know, I barely get it by Shalom Zachor, personally. I don't know what's the chashivus of it, but it certainly is chashivus. I know 14 facilities in Belgium that's actually an authentic trappist product.
That's at least in Belgium. I guess it's really authentic the way they've been doing it for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years, some of these places and people appreciate that. So that would be that. You know, and there's many other sorts of shailos that come up.
We just had a restaurant recently that has a Japanese scenario going on in the restaurant. You know, they're trying to. And so we were dealing with the shaila because they were putting up samurai warriors.
Rabbi Hisiger: Oh, really? Like figurines?
Rabbi Fishbane: Figurines, figurines.
So our Av Beit Din went in and cut off an ear, you know, made sure that people wouldn't assume it was a Buddha or whatever it is. So, again, Hilchos Avodah Zara, who's thinking about that? The mashgiach that, you know, learns Hilchos Melicha and Pas Akum. But it really shows what it goes into running a conversation today, the need for a very strong Beis Din, a need for Talmidei Chachamim as well as practical and knowing how to use Google Maps.
Rabbi Hisiger: Rabbi Fishbane, that's absolutely fascinating. And we look forward if you ever have any of those other interesting stories, like the one about the eye drops, that's unbelievable. I think since we started this program, I think that that one takes the cake. So thank you for sharing and thank you for being here.
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