Enough Quality Mashgichim
Why is it so hard to find quality mashgichim in the food service industry? Let's listen to Rabbi Nosson Dubin - Kashrus Administrator of HKA (Houston), and founder of the Kosher Institute of America as he explains the root causes, and how we can address the underlying issues.
Rabbi Hisiger: Hello everyone and welcome back to Let's Talk Kashrus, presented by the Kashrus Awareness Project in conjunction with Torah Anytime. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Nosson Dubin, Kashrus Administrator of the HKA in Houston and founder of the Kashrus Institute of America. Thank you Rabbi Dubin for being here. Nice to speak to you once again.
Rabbi Dubin: Yes, pleasure to be here. Rabbi Hisiger: And thank you for being here all the way from Houston, here in the Let's Talk Kashrus studios.
Rabbi Dubin: An opportunity. Rabbi Hisiger: So today we would like to speak about actually a very important topic, a topic that affects really the health of the Kashrus industry.
I don't think we have discussed it here on Let's Talk Kashrus before and that is something that you told me just a couple of minutes ago, is a really serious issue facing the world of Kashrus, and that is either a shortage of mashgichim or difficulty getting mashgichim in the food service industry. So give us a little overview and then we'll get into some of the details. What is the issue at hand? Rabbi Dubin: Yes. I think it would not be an overstatement to say that the biggest Kashrus challenge that we have today worldwide is finding quality mashgichim. Finding and quality. Both. It's remarkable. I mean, we're talking about, not so much in the factory world, industrial. Those are not nearly as difficult, but in the food service world where restaurants, caterers, supermarkets, bakeries, that kind of environment, finding quality mashgichim and being able to maintain and retain those mashgichim is a tremendous challenge to Kashrus today.
Around the world. I speak to hashgachos from in the United States, North America, in Europe, South Africa, everywhere. Everyone is struggling with the same issue and it's a really, really big challenge.
Rabbi Hisiger: I'll just jump on this. Is the issue as simple as compensation? That there's just not a lot of extra money to go around and if you're not paying, then you're not going to get good people? Is it as simple as that, or am I oversimplifying it?
Rabbi Dubin: So I think that if we were able to solve that 100%, then I think we would be dealing with a lot less of an issue. But I think there's a few components, a few pieces here. Number one is definitely your point. Money.
It boils down to money. And really what's happening here is that when you have a factory, you have a huge company, you have a Nestle, you have a Coca-Cola, you have a production company, they understand that there's cost, there's research and development, there's all kinds of associated costs with, if they want to have organic certification, they want to have non-GMO, there's all kinds of marketing costs and that they can just build certain things into their budget and understand that the Kashrus fees are just part of it and that's okay. In a food service world where there's a steakhouse, a falafel shop, a pizza store, a bakery, a supermarket, right? If you want to have a mashgiach temidi, you want to have a mashgiach that's there all the time, right? We're talking about a full-time salary and you need someone, you need to be paying them enough that they can support a family. That means that you're taking Moishe's falafel joint and you're telling him, okay, I don't know, what's the lowest amount that we can assume that would be the lowest amount that someone can support a family? I don't know, let's say $80,000 or whatever the number would be, right? Depending on where you live, right? Obviously, New York would be a lot more than in other places.
But by the time you're paying your rent and you're a person that has a family of a bunch of children and they're paying tuition and they're paying rent or a mortgage and car payments and all kinds of other things, they don't have that kind of budget to pay a mashgiach, besides for the regular Kashrus fees, besides for everything else. And it just creates an environment that's untenable. It's impossible to be able to pay a proper salary to a mashgiach.
Rabbi Hisiger: So from what I understand, one of the ways to address this very, very issue, where businesses don't have extra funds and whatever profit they're making, that's why they're in business, to make that profit, not to give it away, is by employing someone who could be an employee of the business and also serve as a mashgiach, right? Double dip, so to speak.
Rabbi Dubin: So this is what's known as a working mashgiach. And I want to touch on that. That's a very, very crucial point. It's a critical point.
But I think there's a few pieces. So you have number 1, the pay is too low. So for example, you have a mashgiach that's getting paid $18 an hour, $20 an hour. It's not sustainable. Okay, we'll touch on that. I want to touch on that in a minute.
In addition to that, you have, it's an extremely demanding job. You are a policeman. You can call it a mashgiach, but it's a very difficult job. I'm in the food service world. And it's not easy. When I have to function in that role, it's not an easy job to do.
Sometimes you have a frum owner, you have somebody who cares about Kashrus, and then it's a pleasure. But even then, you have other people working in the kitchen. You always have to be on top of people. And obviously, there's a lot of social skills and you're trying to do it nicely, but it's a conflict. It's not easy. So you have the pay, you have the conflict. In general, restaurant employees, there's a very high turnover rate, right? A lot of times, like I'll see a Houston, I'll see the same employee, he'll work in this restaurant, and then he's fired from this one, he shows up this one, and then he gets, he leaves this one because he got another dollar an hour somewhere else. A very high turnover rate in general, because it's a hard environment to work, very high stress kitchen environment.
And I think that the last point is respect. And it really plays on both. Number one, respect from the owner and the establishment, respect from the community for the integral role that they're playing, and respect from the Kashrus agency. That's also important.
So I think there's a composite of a lot of things that are going on here. But I think that if you think about it, right, if you think about it, think about Chinuch for a second, right? What was the status of a melamed 75 years ago, 50 years ago? Very often you had some extraordinary Melamdim, right? But a lot of people who really didn't belong being Melamdim and just couldn't find another job, right? And it wasn't considered a prestigious position and it wasn't compensated as a prestigious position. And over time, we've come to realize that, no, these are our children and we want them to be compensated properly. We want them to be taken care of. We want to put them on a pedestal, right? And now to get a job as a Rebbe is hard, right? The question for, I think that we need to be asking ourselves is the Mashgiach is also filling a crucial role because you could have the best policies in the world for a Hashgacha. Bottom line is, it's only as strong as the weakest link. It's the person who's actualizing your policies, who's doing that. So how do we take the Mashgiach of today? And we have some really excellent Mashgichim, but at the same time, we're forced sometimes to hire people just because we need someone. How do we create that respect and prestigious position and put them on a pedestal in a way that they, in hopefully not 50 years from now, but that it should be something that it should be a hard position to get.
Rabbi Hisiger: What is the Eitza? What's the Mehalech? What do you see as a Mehalech? If not to rectify it, at least to alleviate it somewhat.
Rabbi Dubin: There are different ideas that, like you said, alleviate. I don't have anything that's going to rectify the problem.
Everyone has ideas. So I'll tell you some things that I'm thinking. Number one is, and I think this is the most important, consumers need to care. That's the bottom line.
Sometimes when a product is being sent out, let's say with Uber Eats, right? So we have a system of how it needs to be wrapped with chosamos. Once in a while you have a situation where something wasn't wrapped properly. So I'll get a customer, he'll call me. It didn't come according to protocol.
Very often I'll tell them, do me a favor, call the restaurant to complain. They say, why should I? It's your job. I'll take care of it too. But when a customer is upset, that has a lot more value.
If somebody comes into a restaurant and something's playing in the music and they're not happy with it, so they'll call me, I say call the restaurant. Not that we won't deal with it. We'll also deal with it, but it has a much bigger effect.
Rabbi Hisiger: I think for two reasons.
First of all, because they're the ones who, they're paying. So, they're the source of the income. And also, because if it's just the Mashgiach, it's, oh, it's the Mashgiach again with his issues and with his problems and with his complications. Why are you bothering us again? And now you're getting involved in, let's say with the music, you're getting involved in something that's not even the Kashrus, right? I'm sure you hear this all the time.
Rabbi Dubin: A hundred percent. But that's exactly the point. Meaning if we as consumers would start to just be a little bit more conscious. So, I'm not saying, I'm not a big advocate of people saying, if I'm going to go to an event, I'm going to go into the kitchen and go check it out and find out where the meat is.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying like, we should have an appreciation. Who is the Mashgiach here? Am I comfortable with that person? And when you are comfortable, make a comment to the owner and say, you know, I feel very comfortable eating here. Meaning if there was a grassroots awareness that we want good quality Mashgichim, I think that that would make a big effect.
That's number one. Number two is also what you mentioned in the beginning is dollars and cents, right? Mashgichim at a time are typically paid between 18 and $22 an hour. Okay. So, assuming they're working full time, 40 hours a week, right? So now they don't necessarily have so many shifts, but let's say they're working a full 40 hours, 50 weeks a year.
That translates to about $44,000 a year.
Rabbi Hisiger: Before taxes.
Rabbi Dubin: Before taxes. Right.
Okay. So what does that translate after taxes? Pick your number. Texas doesn't have state income taxes. But you're talking about your walk-home pay is what? $35,000? Yeah.
Not more. Right. Okay. And after Maaser, and if you're paying Maaser,
Rabbi HIsiger: It's not a livable wage.
Rabbi Dubin: It's not even, it's not even close. Right. And it's a hard job.
You don't really have the capacity to take on so many extra jobs and it's hard. It's physically hard. It's challenging. So it's dollars and cents.
It doesn't work. It doesn't work. So sometimes we'll have quality Mashgichim and I'm dying to keep them. Right.
You can't afford them. Why? Who's paying their wage? Where's the money coming from? So, some Hashgachos they pay the Mashgiach. Some Hashgachos the store pays the Mashgiach. That's a whole separate conversation.
Either way, the money's coming from the same place. Money's coming from the restaurant. Right. Right.
So, they're paying $44,000. They're not willing to pay $80,000 or $100,000 or $120,000. So that's, that I think is, is a huge issue. And that's something that, you know, like we were discussing before, I think that the going back to us as consumers being more conscious of it is, I think that's an interesting thing to think about.
Would you be willing, I don't mean you necessarily, but the proverbial we or you, would we be willing to pay an extra $2 for each meal that we order for the level of Kashrut to be a little bit higher?
Rabbi Hisiger: Right. So, when the question is asked like that, I think most erliche people will say, of course, it's worth $2. It's worth $2. But when it comes down to it, and when you're actually paying the bill, no one likes paying more.
Right. And people will kvetch about it. Right. That's the bottom line. And I'll just add, I'm sorry, I'll just add that also, because when you're paying the extra $2 for more pastrami, you see the more pastrami in your sandwich. It's a tangible benefit. Yes. Over here, it's somewhat of an intangible benefit because you're not, meaning you don't see it. Of course, it's tangible, but you don't see it. You don't, you really don't.
Rabbi Dubin: Right. So, I mean, like I think that, I think that's something we really, really need to think about. You know, there are hashgachos in the New York area that are paying $28 an hour, but again, $28 an hour in New York.
Rabbi Hisiger: Even $28, bottom line, it's not cutting it. And at the end of the day, someone who's super capable and super driven and super knowledgeable, ultimately this is not going to be his calling. Which is unfortunate.
Rabbi Dubin: Which is unfortunate. So, you know, some thoughts that I've discussed with different people. Some people have mentioned different ideas. One idea is, and again, this is something that needs further thought. I don't know necessarily if it's the right idea, but there's different things, you know, is for the kehillah, every community, to have a fund for Mashgichim.
You know, something like a Torah Mesorah has, and Chasdei Lev for Rebbeim and different things, but to create a fund for Mashgichim, which accomplishes two things, right? A fund for Mashgichim where we're not going to be able to get a Meshgichim salary from $45,000, you know, to 80, 90, 100. This, we're not gonna be able to raise enough money for that. I think that's unrealistic at this point. But what we could do is we could give them a few thousand dollars for Yom Tov.
We could give them a few thousand dollars for Bar Mitzvah. We could give them the opportunity to take off and go on vacation with their wife. We can give them, you know, matzos for Pesach. We can give them daled minim for, you know, there are things that we can do as a kehillah.
I don't mean, not so much from a Kashrus agency perspective but as a kehila. If we banded together to create a cause match charity campaign or any other fundraiser, to have a fund for Mashgichim, which accomplishes, number one, giving them tangible benefits, but also giving them a sense that not only the kashrus agency and not only the owner that's always mad at them, but people really care.
Rabbi Hisiger: I just wonder, not to be the Debbie Downer or the cynic, but I wonder if that would only work out of town, you know, where it's a little more of a cohesive kehillah in a large city, in Brooklyn, you know, Brooklyn, Lakewood, five towns, so on and so forth, big flourishing metropolises. I'm not sure if people will have that feeling, I'm just saying.
Rabbi Dubin: I think today, maybe not.
But the question is, if we can create an environment where this is something that's appreciated, maybe it's something to think through. Maybe in Houston we could do it.
Another thing is, what you mentioned also earlier, is a working Mashgichim. And I think that's probably the easiest, one of the easier ideas, is to have, you know, like we have some of our Mashgichim who are really providing tremendous value to the restaurant besides for hashgachah.
And when you have somebody like that, the restaurant really has no issue paying them a very nice salary. Again, it's not going to be, you know, like equivalent necessarily to other jobs, because in the restaurant food service industry, the salaries are typically lower. But even so, you're talking about something which is somewhat sustainable. Somebody could be in there for a few years. These are some ideas as far as pay, that's just as far as pay is concerned.
I think with regards to the respect component, and I think they're really both equally important, like I was reaching out today to a bunch of different people in advance of this discussion. I reached out to some of my Mashgichim, I reached out to other food service administrators, I reached out to some owners, just to have, and really this is what we're discussing a lot of it is a composite of different ideas and different things that people have mentioned. And I think one of the most common things that came up is respect for Mashgichim.
We need to understand that they're the ones that are providing us with kosher food, ultimately, and respect them and appreciate it. And really, the Mashgichim that really do stay in it, what I find at least in Houston, in my experience, is people that are idealistic, because money is not going to cut it. It's not the money that's keeping you in, and it's not the respect. As much as I respect the Mashgichim, and I think they're amazing, and without them, we would not have kosher food.
But it's a hard job. And this is huge. So, I think the respect is really, really a big deal. And going together with respect, I think there's another angle to that, which is training.
And this is something that other people in the kosher world push very much. The reality is that when someone goes to school for two years, or three years, four years to get a degree, there's a higher barrier to entry. And therefore, the salary is higher, automatically, because it's supply and demand, and the respect is higher for the person because they have an understanding that they have something that I don't have. I don't have an MBA.
I'm not a CPA, and I'll probably never be a CPA. So, if I have something, an accounting question, this is somebody who I know, knows much more than I do. There's an inherent respect for that. And creating that training and the continual training.
You know who does this excellent, is COR in Toronto. They have a phenomenal program for their Mashgichim. Phenomenal.
Rabbi Hisiger: Is that a prerequisite to be a Meshgiach for COR?
Rabbi Dubin: I believe so.
They have a course, which is actually a college course that they get credits for. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. And then they also have like a kollel for them, and they give them supplements. They're doing things right. They're doing really, they're doing it. Really a lot to learn from what they're doing there.
As far as training, so we're, you know, the AKO Mashgiach course, I think that definitely helped.
Let me tell you a little bit about the AKO Mashgiach course. It was created by us - the Kosher Institute of America together with AKO. And we started it in 2020, January 2020, right before COVID. And by now we have probably about 4,000 Mashgichim who have taken the course, around the world. And it's been completely transformative because really, you know, when we were hiring Mashgichim before the course, right? Let's be real.
So, some Hashgachos had really good trainings, granted, and they did like, you know, multi-day trainings and so on. We didn't have that, right? So, if you need a Mashgichim, what do you do? You meet them on site. You show them around. Take a look at this.
When your convection oven opens, make sure to look at this. This is how we do vegetables. And that's really it, right? So really what the Mashgichim course did is now every single person who's becoming a Mashgichim for many agencies, right? We have, I don't know, 30, 35 agencies that are using it. OU, OK, Kof-K, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Montreal, South Africa, London, you know, all over the world.
And everyone's taking the same training, taking the same test, and really getting a full knowledge in basar b'chalav, in pas Akum, bishul Yisrael, tolaim, and everything else. I think that part of that really was to create that sense of respect that this is somebody who's trained. You get a nice Mashgiach card, a photo ID.
Rabbi Hisiger: Besides that, you're actually teaching them very important skills and knowledge. But you're saying from the respect standpoint, it's dignified. It's not like, oh, you need a job. You need to make a few dollars. OK, we'll sit you down and check some vegetables. It gives them a chashivus, which is takeh something very special.
Rabbi Dubin: Yeah.
Rabbi Hisiger: Any final thoughts on this topic?
Rabbi Dubin: Yeah. So, I think that I would say just one thing I would say that if you have the opportunity, if you're in a restaurant as a customer, if you can take the opportunity and go to the Mashgiach, thank him for his service.
This is a suggestion that R’ Sholey Klein suggested to me, and I thought that was brilliant. It was great. It's huge. You know, like when somebody's in the army, someone's in uniform, people say, you know, thank you for your service, right? Right, right, right.
So, they're in the army of kashrus.
Rabbi Hisiger: In the army of kashrut. It's so true. And the truth is that the amount of responsibility that Mashgiach can carry for thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of people over the course of a week who are eating food, relying on their expertise and their responsibility.
So, we are really, we have a debt of gratitude to those who are out there in the field. And you alluded to it before, it's not, it's definitely not the best paying job and it's not always the most fun job. A lot of stress in the kitchen environment. Things go wrong.
Right. You're dealing with, there's also a social component like you also alluded to of dealing with people and it's the Mashgiach's job to do that. So, you know, for what it's worth, we'll express that here to all those who are in the food service industry and really any part of kashrus serving as Mashgichim. And we are very grateful to them for their service because they're underappreciated and underpaid.
And IY”H maybe together with your initiatives and your ideas and with this conversation, hopefully we could raise the level of respect that they receive. And also, hopefully, maybe eventually even the compensation at some point.
Rabbi Dubin: Even the compensation. And maybe one day if the kashrus awareness is still going, you know, in a few decades from now, we'll look back and be like, we once had an issue with this.
Rabbi Hisiger: Amen. Amen. Rabbi Dubin, thank you for being here. It's a pleasure to see you.
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